It seems like we may be conflating pre-review with review a bit in this thread.  Not singling Doug out here but had to pick one to respond to. I find it hard to believe the anyone doesn't feel that a solid review is always desired (although often not enough time is left for). I don't see folks adopting a full peer review or even some of the other reviews discussed beyond some high level processes before allowing a proposal to be submitted, am I wrong?

Chris

www.moderas.co

-----Original Message-----
From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of dougm (Doug Mounce)
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 2:14 PM
To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org
Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Pre-review

I remember a Chair in chemistry who strictly enforced his departmental deadlines for prior review.  He did review all the proposals, and the faculty started getting more awards.  Peer review is a painful process, but if you get those informal reviews before you submit then you at least won't be surprised by the formal scores.

Also, another old maxim, it's best if the review panel either loves your work or hates it.  At least you know it is being discussed!

-----Original Message-----
From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of Colin Cooper
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 11:02 AM
To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org
Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Pre-review

I believe strongly in internal review, as a matter of fact it is now mandatory with the UK research councils as part of their demand management policy.
I also believe we can help with every aspect of a proposal, except for the "eureka moment" which our PI's must have themselves.
Have a great weekend.
Colin

Sent from my iPad

> On 24 Mar 2017, at 13:57, Vincelli, Diana <xxxxxx@richmond.edu> wrote:
>
> This is a good thread of idea exchanging!
> For every one professor who, like the one described by Chris below, thinks grant-seeking is a waste of time, there are about a dozen who say the act of proposal writing was beneficial even if they do not receive a grant. It helps them to clarify their ideas for themselves, focus on what is most important, articulate the ideas so that others can understand, think through the budget to determine what they will need for the next period of research, to engage potential collaborators or writers of reference letters, and to gain confidence that they are onto something and that they really are the best person to do this work.
>
> My last-minute questions are usually related to the budget (are fringe and indirect costs included and correctly calculated?), and to make sure that all the required components are included.
> Given more time - I generally request a week - I will also read, proofread and edit the narrative portions as best I can, check word counts where there are limits, and look for consistency/agreement in the various parts.  We always intend to submit the best possible proposal in this highly competitive grant-world; experience has taught us that it takes time to be excellent.
>
> Best to all,
> Diana
>
> Diana Thompson Vincelli
> Director of Grant Support
> Office of Foundation, Corporate & Government Relations (FCGR)
> (mail) 28 Westhampton Way  (location) 104 Puryear Hall University of
> Richmond, VA  23173-0001
> 804.289.8005   fax 804.287.1433   mobile 804.426.6907
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Research Administration List
> [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of Hathaway,
> Charles
> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 9:30 AM
> To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org
> Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Pre-review
>
> I tell junior faculty that there are a few people in the universe whose ideas alone, i.e. just the synaptic energy, will be a magnet for funding.  A bunch more can succeed by submitting incomplete sentences done in pencil on notebook paper.  But the rest of us need to go through the normal process, follow rules, and think about the quality of the transaction with the reader/reviewer.  God help us if "nuts and bolts" are of primary importance in getting funded.  Ask professional grant writers how much magic they can do with underlying crappy science.
>
>
> But as Liane Reif-Lehrer famously wrote, "It takes more than just a good idea."  How much more depends on the idea and how much an investigator will leave to chance.  If he/she feels their idea is competitive, then go ahead and invest in carbon frames and electronic shifters. You don't need to win the race to get a grant.  You just need to do whatever you can to be near the front.
> Charlie
> ________________________________
> From: Research Administration List [xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org]
> on behalf of Chris Thompson [xxxxxx@MODERAS.ORG]
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:54 PM
> To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org
> Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Pre-review
>
>
> One small point related to pre-approval. I was speaking with an investigator who had 20+ years of experience. I asked him what he thought about it and he felt it was a waste of time. I said to him that it was really triage and felt it was good for the overall community. His feeling was that administration didn't understand that if he had an idea for research that even if it was rejected he'd still pursue it. He's find other ways to get it funded. That 90% of the work wasn't the proposal, it was the idea and that boiling it down to nuts and bolts was wrong thinking.
>
> I'm not sure I completely agree but felt it was worth sharing as it did give me pause.
>
> Chris
>
> www.moderas.co<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www
> .moderas.co&d=DwMFaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPg
> I-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=rgvFRDI8FcDkjAQURfDAx-nl1sQvy_E20cWTKHLEKpc&s=
> WHv1vf343CCrk2-jaXicHvfWakDT4nckg8EQur4hgK0&e=>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 5:27 PM, Hathaway, Charles <xxxxxx@NYMC.EDU<mailto:xxxxxx@nymc.edu>> wrote:
>
> Answers to this could take many words.  Obviously there are technical and compliance issues.  But from a grantsmanship perspective, if you have 2 hours or less:
>
>
> 1)      Make sure all spelling and grammar  in the title, abstract, and Specific Aims (or equivalent) are perfect.
>
> 2)      Make sure the abstract and Aims page are consistent (e.g. stated goals, objectives, aims are +/- the same)
>
> 3)      Read through the Specific Aims page (or equivalent introduction) and clean up as much as possible.
>
> 4)      Make sure the PI email address on face page is not xxxxxx@hotmail.com<mailto:xxxxxx@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Problems with the above can and should be fixed quickly.
>
> Refuse to submit: after 20 years in this business, including about 10+ where I really had the authority and credibility to stop a submission, I have only done so for overall content/presentation reasons about 5 times.  And the reason was always that it would help neither the investigator nor the institution to have a poor quality proposal make its way to a review panel that will, without question, remember for some time what they have seen.
>
> CH
>
>
>
>
> *************************************
> Charles B. Hathaway, Ph.D.
> Assistant Dean for Research Administration Director, Office of
> Research Administration School of Medicine New York Medical College
> 40 Sunshine Cottage Road, GN-B28
> Valhalla, NY  10595-1524
> 914.594.2600
> xxxxxx@nymc.edu<mailto:xxxxxx@nymc.edu>
>
>
>
> From: Research Administration List
> [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of Megan Roth
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 4:49 PM
> To:
> xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch
> .org>
> Subject: [RESADM-L] Pre-review
>
> Would you all share what you consider best practices for pre-review of a grant application before it is submitted.
> What do you look at?
> What changes would you require of a PI, last minute?
> What conditions would prompt you to refuse a submission?
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Megan Roth, Ph.D.
> Director, Office of Research and Sponsored Programs Abilene Christian
> University
> 320 Hardin Administration Bldg
> ACU Box 29103
> Abilene, TX 79699
> O: 325-674-2885
> F: 325-674-6785
> xxxxxx@acu.edu<mailto:xxxxxx@acu.edu>
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 Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including<br>
 subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available<br>
 via our web site at http://www.healthresearch.org (click on the<br>
 "LISTSERV" link in the upper right corner)<br>
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 A link directly to helpful tips:  http://tinyurl.com/resadm-l-help<br>
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