I would tell you that we wouldn't bid as a sub.  You know USDA doesn't restrict Archer-Daniels-Midland's G&A recovery, and if they were the best fit org for a project of yours, they'd decline to team with you.

We all run a business - it just happens that its all about helping others in our own ways.  However, to continue this business, it has to be sustainable into the future.  You don't do that by not recouping incurred costs.

I'm proud to say that we've passed on fed grants largely because the cost to do business FOR the fed exceeded the benefits to our membership.  We only do contracts now with full G&A, base and award fees.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but...  It gets my goat.

Gloria Greene <xxxxxx@UAH.EDU> wrote:

>In this case as stated by Maureen, the cap is a flow down to subs, IAW the
>solicitation.
>
>
>
>*Gloria Greene, MA, CRA*
>
>Director
>
>UAHuntsville, Office of Sponsored Programs
>
>301 Sparkman Drive, VBRH E26
>
>Huntsville, AL  35899
>
>Voice: (256) 824-2657
>
>Fax: (256) 824-6677
>
>
>
>*"The person who knows 'how' will always have a job. The person who knows
>'why' will always be his boss."   -- Diane Ravitch*
>
>
>
>*Please do not print this email unless necessary.*
>*Take Charge,* *Go GREEN!*
>
>[image: yep]
>
>
>
>*From:* Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] *On Behalf
>Of *xxxxxx@ADEA.ORG
>*Sent:* Thursday, December 30, 2010 7:41 AM
>*To:* xxxxxx@hrinet.org
>*Subject:* Re: [RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>
>
>Sometimes the statutory limit on the amount of F&A/indirect cost recovery
>allowed flows down to subcontracts. This should be specified in the program
>announcement/RFA.
>
>
>
>Maureen B. McMahon, CRA
>
>Grants Manager
>
>Center for Educational Policy and Research
>
>*American Dental Education Association*
>
>The Voice of Dental Education
>
>1400 K Street NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005
>
>Voice 202-289-7201 ext. 137
>
>Fax 202-289-7204
>
>xxxxxx@adea.org <xxxxxx@adea.org>
>
>www.adea.org
>
>
>
>Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is
>for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may include confidential
>and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or
>distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
>contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original
>message.
>
>
>
>*From:* Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] *On Behalf
>Of *Gregory K. Schmidt
>*Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:17 PM
>*To:* xxxxxx@hrinet.org
>*Subject:* Re: [RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>
>
>I want to step back and take another look at this.  The question I have is
>why are you limiting your subcontractors to this 22/28.somestupidnumber?
>Your agreement between you and the sub doesn’t involve USDA.  To USDA, the
>cost to them is your TDC plus F&A.  Your TDC includes your salary & wages,
>benes, labor OH, travel, ODC’s, equipment, software, subcontracts, etc.  All
>of it.  Times 28.629874% for F&A.  The sub’s F&A does not come into the
>equation.  Their total cost, inclusive of their 64% F&A, is a cost item of
>your direct costs.
>
>
>
>Also, because they’re limiting to 28% TDC, you’d throw equipment, subs over
>25K, shop costs and all into the pot.  There is the evaluation process that
>has to take place.  Basically you have to calculate the F&A twice to make
>sure you’re not overcharging.
>
>
>
>It’s a dumb policy, but who ever said that Legislators made smart ones?
>
>
>
>Greg Schmidt
>
>GKS Consulting, LLC
>
>703-346-5696 (Voice)
>
>703-938-1294 (Fax)
>
>
>
>*From:* Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] *On Behalf
>Of *xxxxxx@ADEA.ORG
>*Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2010 9:21 AM
>*To:* xxxxxx@hrinet.org
>*Subject:* Re: [RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>
>
>Sarah-
>
>I agree with your calculations, except that I don't understand this
>sentence: * If you are allowing subs to take the max allowable, the total
>direct costs of the subs should not be included in your calculation.*
>
>
>
>There also may be cases where the 22% TFF may exceed the negotiated rate
>based on MTDC: when there is a large amount budgeted for equipment, for
>example. Or if a large amount of the work is being subbed. In any case, very
>good suggestion to compare the 22% TFF rate with your negotiated rate and
>make sure you are not exceeding the latter.
>
>
>
>Maureen B. McMahon, CRA
>
>Grants Manager
>
>Center for Educational Policy and Research
>
>*American Dental Education Association*
>
>The Voice of Dental Education
>
>1400 K Street NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005
>
>Voice 202-289-7201 ext. 137
>
>Fax 202-289-7204
>
>xxxxxx@adea.org <xxxxxx@adea.org>
>
>www.adea.org
>
>
>
>Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is
>for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may include confidential
>and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or
>distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
>contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original
>message.
>
>
>
>*From:* Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] *On Behalf
>Of *Sarah Dumais
>*Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2010 9:15 AM
>*To:* xxxxxx@hrinet.org
>*Subject:* Re: [RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>
>
>*No, I mean TDC.  If you do the math, you’ll see how it works.  We’re going
>to take as much F&A as allowable, as long as it doesn’t exceed our federally
>negotiated rate.  At a cap that low, the 22% TFF (28.205% TDC) will never
>exceed 54% MTDC, which is our federally negotiated on-campus rate.  I would
>think this applies to most institutions of higher education.*
>
>* *
>
>*Also, any other sponsor that caps at below the federally negotiated rate is
>calculated at TDC.*
>
>* *
>
>*Of course, if you’re working with an extremely low negotiated rate for some
>reason, then the negotiated rate, which an institution cannot exceed, might
>have to be applied.  Sometimes you just have to work it out.*
>
>* *
>
>* *
>
>* *
>
>*Sarah B. Dumais*
>
>*Research Grant/Contract Specialist*
>
>*732.932.0150 x2107*
>
>*848.218.1834 (mobile)*
>
>*732.932.0162 fax*
>
>*xxxxxx@grants.rutgers.edu*
>
>*www.orsp.rutgers.edu*
>
>* *
>
>*From:* Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] *On Behalf
>Of *Gina Betcher
>*Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2010 8:47 AM
>*To:* xxxxxx@hrinet.org
>*Subject:* Re: [RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>
>
>Exactly
>
>Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry
>------------------------------
>
>*From: *Michael Wetherholt <xxxxxx@COLSTATE.EDU>
>
>*Sender: *Research Administration List <xxxxxx@hrinet.org>
>
>*Date: *Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:37:10 -0500
>
>*To: *<xxxxxx@hrinet.org>
>
>*ReplyTo: *Research Administration Discussion List <xxxxxx@hrinet.org>
>
>*Subject: *Re: [RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>
>
>Sarah:
>
>Do you mean MTDC when you say TDC?
>
>Michael
>
>On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Sarah Dumais <xxxxxx@grants.rutgers.edu>
>wrote:
>
>*To come up with 22% of TOTAL PROJECT COSTS REQUESTED, use 28.205% of TDC,
>add that to direct costs to arrive at the total federal funds requested
>(TFF). To check, multiply TFF by 22%. If you are allowing subs to take the
>max allowable, the total direct costs of the subs should not be included in
>your calculation.*
>
>*Depending on the amount of direct costs being requested by the subs, the
>budget should also be calculated at your federally negotiated rate MTDC. You
>must use the lesser of the two indirect cost amounts. *
>
>*Sarah B. Dumais*
>
>*Research Grant & Contract Specialist*
>
>*Office of Research and Sponsored Programs*
>
>*Rutgers, The State University*
>
>*3 Rutgers Plaza, ASB III*
>
>*New Brunswick, NJ 08901*
>
>*732.932.0150 x2107*
>
>*848.218.1834 (mobile)*
>
>*732.932.0162 fax*
>
>*xxxxxx@grants.rutgers.edu*
>
>*www.orsp.rutgers.edu*
>
>*From:* Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] *On Behalf
>Of *Gina I Betcher
>*Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2010 12:18 AM
>
>
>*To:* xxxxxx@hrinet.org
>
>*Subject:* Re: [RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>My reading of the USDA cap is to use 22% on the TDC or your reduced rate on
>the MTDC, whichever works out to be less. This is what your PI was talking
>about.
>------------------------------
>
>*From: *"Gloria Greene" <xxxxxx@UAH.EDU>
>*To: *xxxxxx@hrinet.org
>*Sent: *Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:46:24 PM
>*Subject: *[RESADM-L] USDA F&A Cap
>
>Will someone help me understand the 22% cap on F&A applied by USDA? This is
>the language founded on USDA website: Indirect Cost Limitations: NIFA is
>prohibited from paying indirect costs exceeding 22 percent of the total
>Federal funds provided under each award. This limitation is equivalent to
>0.28205 of the total direct costs of an award. See Part IV, E (page 37) for
>additional information.
>
>So I am reading this to say for example: if my modified total direct cost is
>$2,900,000 (this amount includes subcontracts). The calculated value of my
>F&A cannot exceed $638,000, to include F&A on the first $25,000 of each
>subrecipient.
>
>My PI is saying I must also include in my calculation to establish the 22%
>CAP the F&A of my subs, this does not make sense to me. Which way is the
>correct way to ensure we do not exceed the 22% F&A cap?
>
>Thank you for responding.
>
>*Gloria Greene, MA, CRA*
>
>Director
>
>UAHuntsville, Office of Sponsored Programs
>
>301 Sparkman Drive, VBRH E26
>
>Huntsville, AL 35899
>
>Voice: (256) 824-2657
>
>Fax: (256) 824-6677
>
>*"The person who knows 'how' will always have a job. The person who knows
>'why' will always be his boss." -- Diane Ravitch*
>
>*Please do not print this email unless necessary.*
>*Take Charge,* *Go GREEN!*
>
>*Error! Filename not specified.*
>
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>--
>Gina Betcher
>Program Officer
>Research and Sponsored Programs
>Western Michigan University
>240-W Walwood Hall MS 5456
>Kalamazoo, MI 49008-5456
>Tel: 269-387-8204
>Cell: 269-806-7540
>Email: xxxxxx@wmich.edu
>
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>--
>
>Michael Wetherholt
>Office of Sponsored Programs
>Columbus State University
>4225 University Avenue
>Columbus, GA 31907
>Office (706) 507-8949Fax (706) 569-3036
>
>xxxxxx@colstate.edu(One underscore between Last and First name)
>
>
>
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