Bob-

I like very much your arguments and "should be allowed"s...

BUT...if the new announcement says: "All application corrections must
be in response to a system-identified
error/warning (application submissions with additional changes may be
refused)."

then our only recourse is a unified and steadfast "I am
Spartacus...and I will fix what I damn well feel like fixing!"

[I quote in part from a PI who I can hear saying this on Feb 6th.]

Charlie

At 02:16 PM 12/5/2007, you wrote:
>Are there not three types of corrections and time given for each,
>after the deadline?
>
>First, there is the 2 day "error correction window."  This requires
>that the application be originally submitted by the NIH 5pm
>deadline.  These are NIH errors that must be fixed before the
>application can be assembled. Too many pages, problem with IRB info,
>etc.   These errors can then be corrected, the application marked
>"corrected" in box 1, something put in box 4, a cover letter
>explaining the reason for lateness attached, and whole thing
>resubmitted.  These errors I call "NIH detected errors."
>
>The second type of error that can be corrected in the "error
>correction window" is the PI detected error. Again submitted on time.
>Are these any less important than the ones found by NIH?  I am
>suggesting that the typos and bad attachments that Charlie mentions
>can be dealt with in this "error correction window" time, just as the
>NIH detected errors are.  The process is a little different.  An SO
>must reject the application in the Commons, but then the process is
>the same as I note above. It is much easier to see these errors after
>the whole application is assembled.  If this cannot be done prior to
>submission, then the checking is done afterward.  Perhaps people have
>not thought of these types of corrections in the same context as the
>NIH detected errors, but they seem the same to me.  These are errors
>in the application due to mistakes made by the PI and research/admin
>team.  Sheri Cummins says fixing warnings fits into this category too.
>
>Note as Sherie Donahue writes, this can be a gamble as NIH may not
>accept a rejected application, but I would argue that this type of
>correction is no different from allowing the PI to correct the NIH
>error.  Within two days, there should be no limit to accepting a late
>application that has an original valid date stamp.  We would hope
>that the PI and supporting staff will get the thing right in the
>first place.  Moreover, we do not want people building in NIH errors
>to just get two extra days to work on the text.  I do not believe,
>however, that there is any way to detect changes in attachments or
>budgets when a corrected application is resubmitted.
>
>The third type of error correction is the system generated error that
>is found after the application is assembled.  This is much like the
>second type of error, in that the application needs to be rejected
>and the problem fixed.  The difference is that this error occurs
>after the application is submitted and is thus a "system generated
>error."  Tables are up side down, or pages are out of order.  The
>grants office have a dilemma with this situation.  Prior to a
>deadline, do they allow an application to be rejected for any
>reason?  I suspect so.  Reject and resubmit, no cover letter needed.
>After a deadline, can an application be rejected for any reason and
>resubmitted or does the Grants Office staff need to see the actual
>system error, and in this case acting on behalf of the sponsor make a
>decision as to whether it should be rejected.  I suggest that any
>application can be rejected during the "two day correction window"
>for any reason, but after that, then there must be strict
>interpretation of the "system generated error" situation.
>
>So, in summary, if NIH allows two days to fix errors they find, then
>the PIs should be allowed the same time to fix any errors they find.
>After that two day correction window period, then the stricter
>"system generated error" rules apply.  In all the cases a cover
>letter is needed for submissions after the deadline.
>
>What happens if an application has errors when it is submitted at the
>end of the two day window?  Is there another 2 days added on?  I
>would like NIH to state that there is then no additional 2 day
>window, except for extraordinary problems that the help desk cannot
>solve. Still 2 more days to check on system generated problems.
>After 4 days, at the most, close up shop for that deadline.  Or get
>ready for those PI's who have some sort of extension. Perhaps soon,
>the "error correction window" will be eliminated, and only the
>"system generated error" corrections will be allowed.
>
>Bob
>xxxxxx@umich.edu
>
>
>
>
>On Dec 5, 2007, at 1:11 PM, Charlie Hathaway wrote:
>
>>Hypothetically - Does this mean if I submit a grant at 4:59 p.m. on
>>deadline day (and it clears grants.gov edits so I have the grants
>>ID #)
>>but then errors out when it gets to NIH that I have two days to
>>resubmit
>>it?  And THEN two days to view it (and resubmit it again if necessary)
>>to correct other "fatal" errors?
>
>Yes.  But "fatal" errors must be caused by NIH...not typos that you
>made.
>
>And cover letters, now required with reference to specific errors/
>warnings, and I presume specific reference to the "NIH system error",
>are required for ANY submission after the deadline.
>
>My original question was whether corrections to fix typos, and
>assorted other "mistakes" are permitted BEFORE the deadline.
>Everyone seems to be thinking that this is OK...but the announcement
>seems to contradict that.  I am thinking that NIH does not want to
>say that 100 submissions to correct anything is ok because they don't
>want Commons used in that way.  I just want to know if someone will
>get dinged for it.
>
>CH
>
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