Bob- I like very much your arguments and "should be allowed"s... BUT...if the new announcement says: "All application corrections must be in response to a system-identified error/warning (application submissions with additional changes may be refused)." then our only recourse is a unified and steadfast "I am Spartacus...and I will fix what I damn well feel like fixing!" [I quote in part from a PI who I can hear saying this on Feb 6th.] Charlie At 02:16 PM 12/5/2007, you wrote: >Are there not three types of corrections and time given for each, >after the deadline? > >First, there is the 2 day "error correction window." This requires >that the application be originally submitted by the NIH 5pm >deadline. These are NIH errors that must be fixed before the >application can be assembled. Too many pages, problem with IRB info, >etc. These errors can then be corrected, the application marked >"corrected" in box 1, something put in box 4, a cover letter >explaining the reason for lateness attached, and whole thing >resubmitted. These errors I call "NIH detected errors." > >The second type of error that can be corrected in the "error >correction window" is the PI detected error. Again submitted on time. >Are these any less important than the ones found by NIH? I am >suggesting that the typos and bad attachments that Charlie mentions >can be dealt with in this "error correction window" time, just as the >NIH detected errors are. The process is a little different. An SO >must reject the application in the Commons, but then the process is >the same as I note above. It is much easier to see these errors after >the whole application is assembled. If this cannot be done prior to >submission, then the checking is done afterward. Perhaps people have >not thought of these types of corrections in the same context as the >NIH detected errors, but they seem the same to me. These are errors >in the application due to mistakes made by the PI and research/admin >team. Sheri Cummins says fixing warnings fits into this category too. > >Note as Sherie Donahue writes, this can be a gamble as NIH may not >accept a rejected application, but I would argue that this type of >correction is no different from allowing the PI to correct the NIH >error. Within two days, there should be no limit to accepting a late >application that has an original valid date stamp. We would hope >that the PI and supporting staff will get the thing right in the >first place. Moreover, we do not want people building in NIH errors >to just get two extra days to work on the text. I do not believe, >however, that there is any way to detect changes in attachments or >budgets when a corrected application is resubmitted. > >The third type of error correction is the system generated error that >is found after the application is assembled. This is much like the >second type of error, in that the application needs to be rejected >and the problem fixed. The difference is that this error occurs >after the application is submitted and is thus a "system generated >error." Tables are up side down, or pages are out of order. The >grants office have a dilemma with this situation. Prior to a >deadline, do they allow an application to be rejected for any >reason? I suspect so. Reject and resubmit, no cover letter needed. >After a deadline, can an application be rejected for any reason and >resubmitted or does the Grants Office staff need to see the actual >system error, and in this case acting on behalf of the sponsor make a >decision as to whether it should be rejected. I suggest that any >application can be rejected during the "two day correction window" >for any reason, but after that, then there must be strict >interpretation of the "system generated error" situation. > >So, in summary, if NIH allows two days to fix errors they find, then >the PIs should be allowed the same time to fix any errors they find. >After that two day correction window period, then the stricter >"system generated error" rules apply. In all the cases a cover >letter is needed for submissions after the deadline. > >What happens if an application has errors when it is submitted at the >end of the two day window? Is there another 2 days added on? I >would like NIH to state that there is then no additional 2 day >window, except for extraordinary problems that the help desk cannot >solve. Still 2 more days to check on system generated problems. >After 4 days, at the most, close up shop for that deadline. Or get >ready for those PI's who have some sort of extension. Perhaps soon, >the "error correction window" will be eliminated, and only the >"system generated error" corrections will be allowed. > >Bob >xxxxxx@umich.edu > > > > >On Dec 5, 2007, at 1:11 PM, Charlie Hathaway wrote: > >>Hypothetically - Does this mean if I submit a grant at 4:59 p.m. on >>deadline day (and it clears grants.gov edits so I have the grants >>ID #) >>but then errors out when it gets to NIH that I have two days to >>resubmit >>it? And THEN two days to view it (and resubmit it again if necessary) >>to correct other "fatal" errors? > >Yes. But "fatal" errors must be caused by NIH...not typos that you >made. > >And cover letters, now required with reference to specific errors/ >warnings, and I presume specific reference to the "NIH system error", >are required for ANY submission after the deadline. > >My original question was whether corrections to fix typos, and >assorted other "mistakes" are permitted BEFORE the deadline. >Everyone seems to be thinking that this is OK...but the announcement >seems to contradict that. I am thinking that NIH does not want to >say that 100 submissions to correct anything is ok because they don't >want Commons used in that way. I just want to know if someone will >get dinged for it. > >CH > >====================================================================== >Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including >subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available >via our web site at http://www.hrinet.org (click on "Listserv Lists") >====================================================================== > > >====================================================================== >Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including >subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available >via our web site at http://www.hrinet.org (click on "Listserv Lists") >====================================================================== ====================================================================== Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available via our web site at http://www.hrinet.org (click on "Listserv Lists") ======================================================================
