My earlier comment about women voting for and being the main reason for the election of Harding and the insinuation that women were mindlessly impressed by style over substance was a poor attempt at humor. I apologize to everyone and especially to anyone who was offended.
If men were stereotypically accused of electing our first or tenth female president because of her physical appearance or charm, I would be offended too.
Charlie Hathaway

On May 25, 2017 5:58 PM, Jennifer Shambrook <xxxxxx@UCF.EDU> wrote:

Badump bump!

From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of xxxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 5:34 PM
To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org
Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Dress code in a multi-generational work force

Wait a minute.  I thought this "Uniform Guidance" document that came out not too long ago was all about dress codes.  Maybe I should reread it...

Bill Sharp (Retired!)

xxxxxx@gmail.com<mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com>

On May 25, 2017, at 4:20 PM, Marcia Landen <xxxxxx@USM.EDU<mailto:xxxxxx@USM.EDU>> wrote:

I like the “code” at my university:

The University does not maintain a formal policy on dress code. However, each staff member is expected to set  a professional image regarding dress in the workplace. Each Budget Authority is responsible to ensure that all employees observe acceptable dress standards. Employees who are usually expected to wear professional clothing are allowed to dress a bit more casually in the summer months.

In my hundred+ years in this business, I have had to talk with employees about odor (too much perfume/cologne or hygiene issues) more often than I’ve had to deal with inappropriate dress. And in all cases, after I addressed it once there were no more issues.

Dress is more casual now, and that might be a generational thing, but as long as any given staff member’s clothing is not a distraction or causing a disruption, I’m pretty tolerant. Sadly, fashion sense is sometimes lacking but that’s a whole different thing.

And I agree that dress codes can be hotbeds of classism and sexism.

Marcia Landen

Associate Vice President for Research

The University of Southern Mississippi

601.266.4119 (main office)

601.266-4123 (direct)

xxxxxx@USM.edu<mailto:xxxxxx@USM.edu>

Find your way around ORA with our new Assistance Navigator<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.usm.edu_research_ora-2Dassistance-2Dnavigator&d=DwMGaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPgI-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=3LW6ZyEUxzKF-bvulzULBYsuMF1Owxiydv_1jlKL3e8&s=ClbVuHQmqjjp1Jok66gPyNvEblKmjqC5eWRuozKv1nw&e=>.

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From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of Moise, Jessica
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 3:57 PM
To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>
Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Dress code in a multi-generational work force

You might not want to get in to sexism, but I will! If an item of clothing is allowable and appropriate for a job class, it ought to be allowable for everyone in that job class. I find dress codes that prescribe items of clothing by gender incredibly offensive.  And if you work in a state that lists  gender identity expression as a protected class, writing a dress code that differentiates between men and women is asking for a lawsuit. (And as anyone who knows me IRL can attest I prefer business suits to law suits.)

Jessica Ruth Moise

Grants and Contracts Officer

Senior Associate Dean for Sponsored Programs

Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai

(formerly Mount Sinai School of Medicine)

(212) 824-8300

(212) 241-3294 (fax)

From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of Aviles, Adrienne J
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 4:42 PM
To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>
Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Dress code in a multi-generational work force

Whenever dress codes are discussed, I think about the Malcolm Gladwell book, “Blink.” Chapter 3, specifically. It talks about something called the “Warren Harding Error.” Warren Harding was president of the United States, and he is one of the most forgettable in our history. This excerpt explains it better than I can.

“In 1899, two men had an important meeting. The first man was Harry Daugherty<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.litcharts.com_lit_blink_characters&d=DwMGaQ&c=shNJtf5dKgNcPZ6Yh64b-A&r=6XQYpEBTidKhb3QLqbM0d30lmmD25JMixAa8pRthtHY&m=C-FLzMnco8cSBB47ejcOyixinAWGygEbAgGXHAFCFEo&s=D6-uI8196sQtF-VSCVYvDDGxUV_Cs0FkqT06_26UZmU&e=>—a lawyer and well-known political “fixer”—and the second was Warren Harding<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.litcharts.com_lit_blink_characters&d=DwMGaQ&c=shNJtf5dKgNcPZ6Yh64b-A&r=6XQYpEBTidKhb3QLqbM0d30lmmD25JMixAa8pRthtHY&m=C-FLzMnco8cSBB47ejcOyixinAWGygEbAgGXHAFCFEo&s=D6-uI8196sQtF-VSCVYvDDGxUV_Cs0FkqT06_26UZmU&e=>—at the time, a newspaper editor from Marion, Ohio, and a candidate for the Ohio state senate. Daugherty was impressed with Harding’s charisma and handsome face—indeed, he was so impressed that he suggested that Harding would make a great president. On paper, Harding didn’t seem presidential—he wasn’t too smart, he’d had countless affairs with women, and he’d never distinguished himself either as a politician or an editor. When he served in the U.S. Senate, he passed no notable legislation. The only reasons Harding continued to ascend in government were that 1) Daugherty helped him, and 2) he looked like a great, charismatic leader. Eventually, Harding ran for president, was elected, and became—according to most historians—one of the worst presidents in American history.”

At best, dress codes allow us to mentally defer to most “professionally attired” person in the room. At their worst, they are a form of classism. They assume that someone who has not spent a good deal of money on their appearance is not knowledgeable nor fit to lead. There are also other issues of sexism to many dress codes that I will not get into here, but they are very real and seem to be perpetuated in most institutions.

Not to say that I do not wear pantyhose, heels, and makeup every day, but this is another side of this topic.

Advance Notice: My last day with the University of Florida will be Thursday, June 1st.

___________________________________________________

Adrienne J. Aviles

Sponsor Programs Manager, IFAS & Engineering Team Lead

University of Florida

Division of Sponsored Programs

207 Grinter Hall

Gainesville, Florida 32611

(352) 392-3926

xxxxxx@ufl.edu<mailto:xxxxxx@ufl.edu>

From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org] On Behalf Of Maryellen O'Brien
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 3:38 PM
To: xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>
Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Dress code in a multi-generational work force

Thanks for all the responses so far and only a couple of offline responses yet, and I’d like to keep it that way.  I hope it’s not that sensitive a subject.  If you’ve responded offline, it would be great to post publicly if you are comfortable with that.  I don’t want to be presumptuous and post for you.

I’m of a generation that started out pretty dressed up most of the time.  Then jeans became acceptable on Fridays…next it was business casual, but always dependent on whatever meetings one had, then it was ‘dress up’.  I’ve worked in many different environments, all over the map literally and figuratively.  In general, I’m a pretty informal person, but clean up well.

As has been mentioned it’s challenging to enforce dress codes with youth when our faculty dress even more youthfully/casually.  I’m trying to strike the right balance between comfort, casual, and office image enhancement for new and young professionals just starting a career, as well as the mature ones that can be a bit quick to form (and state) an opinion.  Years ago, I had a Director tell me that “people who wear jeans to work don’t work as hard”.  I was almost speechless.

So…what is it?  Jeans, but no jeggings?  What, no leggings?  Tanks, but only with a jacket/sweater, but what’s with the cold shoulder?  How low can it go….tops and bottoms?  I don’t want to see skin or thong strings when you bend over.  Flip flops and stilettos?  Is it how many or just where the body piercings are?

Thankfully, I don’t face all, or even most of these in my office, but I see a lot of it every day.  I think for the most part it’s important to be clean cut and in clothes that you wouldn’t be embarrassed to be seen in by your grandmother and/or if you were called to an unexpected meeting with upper level leadership.  For most people, that should be enough guidance, but not for all.

Waiting to see who else we hear from.

Maryellen

From: Research Administration List <xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>> on behalf of Scott Niles <xxxxxx@MOREHEADSTATE.EDU<mailto:xxxxxx@MOREHEADSTATE.EDU>>
Reply-To: Research Administration Discussion List <xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>>
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 3:13 PM
To: "xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>" <xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>>
Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Dress code in a multi-generational work force

Hi Maryellen! Interestingly enough, I just read an article in The Atlantic about this yesterday (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/05/history-of-business-casual/526014<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.theatlantic.com_business_archive_2017_05_history-2Dof-2Dbusiness-2Dcasual_526014&d=DwMGaQ&c=shNJtf5dKgNcPZ6Yh64b-A&r=6XQYpEBTidKhb3QLqbM0d30lmmD25JMixAa8pRthtHY&m=C-FLzMnco8cSBB47ejcOyixinAWGygEbAgGXHAFCFEo&s=0XIDs7M7vepBhdenUUXD0oxuuPbWRgOxIVM5ZDJqzrk&e=>/).

At our institution (a PUI), the dress code is largely left up to the discretion of the unit’s supervisor. Recently, one of our divisions that manages IT forbade jeans and sneakers, much to the chagrin of the employees. So in general, if anything, our institution has become slightly less casual. Khakis and polo shirts with loafers are the standard uniform around here for summer. Of course, that’s only for the staff! I’ve seen faculty in Bermuda shorts and t-shirts coming in to teach summer classes…

Scott Niles, Ph.D., CRA
Director, Research Integrity & Compliance
Office of Research and Sponsored Programs
Morehead State University
901 Ginger Hall
Morehead, KY 40351
Phone: 606-783-2278
Fax: 606-783-2130
Web site: http://www.moreheadstate.edu/research<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.moreheadstate.edu_research&d=DwMGaQ&c=shNJtf5dKgNcPZ6Yh64b-A&r=6XQYpEBTidKhb3QLqbM0d30lmmD25JMixAa8pRthtHY&m=C-FLzMnco8cSBB47ejcOyixinAWGygEbAgGXHAFCFEo&s=mKDtEyexxJC_KrVE3J-w1WEOAqSKjcmWH6nrLV7kxHU&e=>

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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:

This communication contains information which is confidential. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying, forwarding or use of this communication or the information therein is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender, delete the communication and destroy any copies.

From: Maryellen O'Brien <xxxxxx@PSU.EDU<mailto:xxxxxx@PSU.EDU>>
Reply-To: Research Administration Discussion List <xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>>
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 3:00 PM
To: "xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>" <xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org<mailto:xxxxxx@lists.healthresearch.org>>
Subject: [RESADM-L] Dress code in a multi-generational work force

Dear all,

Just wondering if your university and/or office has documented dress code standards?  Over the years, I’ve found universities to be more casual in their approach to office dress than hospitals or corporations.  The summer tends to be even more casual, with folks wearing flip flops to work.  I’m pretty informal myself, but it’s getting more difficult to draw the line, particularly with the multigenerational workforce.  I’m seeing the youngest generations to enter the work force to be even more casual.  What are your limits/boundaries?  Is it in writing?  Seasonal?  It seems there’s now business casual versus summer casual?

How do y’all handle it?

Thanks,

Maryellen O’Brien

Director of Grants and Contracts

College of Agricultural Sciences

The Pennsylvania State University

State College, PA  16801

814-865-3135

xxxxxx@psu.edu<mailto:xxxxxx@psu.edu>

If you plan on submitting a proposal please use the following link to provide our office with the information we need to get your plans on our calendar and in workflow.  Please try to provide at least 3 weeks notice.

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<br> ======================================================================<br> Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including<br> subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available<br> via our web site at http://www.healthresearch.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.healthresearch.org&d=DwMGaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPgI-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=3LW6ZyEUxzKF-bvulzULBYsuMF1Owxiydv_1jlKL3e8&s=ZdLhqXID__aULCcI1LpSD6TUapjY8_LRn2H3MFP6Xhs&e=> (click on the<br> "LISTSERV" link in the upper right corner)<br> <br> A link directly to helpful tips: http://tinyurl.com/resadm-l-help<br><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_resadm-2Dl-2Dhelp-253cbr-253e&d=DwMGaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPgI-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=3LW6ZyEUxzKF-bvulzULBYsuMF1Owxiydv_1jlKL3e8&s=q7Gx45d2ABCiC1yxBtYwn3IZo9jA29RCf643mfykyUA&e=> ======================================================================<br>

<br> ======================================================================<br> Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including<br> subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available<br> via our web site at http://www.healthresearch.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.healthresearch.org&d=DwMGaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPgI-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=3LW6ZyEUxzKF-bvulzULBYsuMF1Owxiydv_1jlKL3e8&s=ZdLhqXID__aULCcI1LpSD6TUapjY8_LRn2H3MFP6Xhs&e=> (click on the<br> "LISTSERV" link in the upper right corner)<br> <br> A link directly to helpful tips: http://tinyurl.com/resadm-l-help<br><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_resadm-2Dl-2Dhelp-253cbr-253e&d=DwMGaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPgI-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=3LW6ZyEUxzKF-bvulzULBYsuMF1Owxiydv_1jlKL3e8&s=q7Gx45d2ABCiC1yxBtYwn3IZo9jA29RCf643mfykyUA&e=> ======================================================================<br>

<br> ======================================================================<br> Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including<br> subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available<br> via our web site at http://www.healthresearch.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.healthresearch.org&d=DwMGaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPgI-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=3LW6ZyEUxzKF-bvulzULBYsuMF1Owxiydv_1jlKL3e8&s=ZdLhqXID__aULCcI1LpSD6TUapjY8_LRn2H3MFP6Xhs&e=> (click on the<br> "LISTSERV" link in the upper right corner)<br> <br> A link directly to helpful tips: http://tinyurl.com/resadm-l-help<br><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_resadm-2Dl-2Dhelp-253Cbr-253E&d=DwMGaQ&c=A51OX6aSaU1ywwq_3bUC2Q&r=tcRn2WiOL_QxPQ6lSR8GPgI-pnLyPE9tN0yoPoJwruY&m=3LW6ZyEUxzKF-bvulzULBYsuMF1Owxiydv_1jlKL3e8&s=nFB40QzIFZlzk_pY82skWEjJqtvwsMjpMu08LZJrPQw&e=> ======================================================================<br>

<br>
======================================================================<br>
 Instructions on how to use the RESADM-L Mailing List, including<br>
 subscription information and a web-searchable archive, are available<br>
 via our web site at http://www.healthresearch.org (click on the<br>
 "LISTSERV" link in the upper right corner)<br>
<br>
 A link directly to helpful tips:  http://tinyurl.com/resadm-l-help<br>
======================================================================<br>