I remember when this mailing list used to fill up my inbox with useful (more-or-less) res admin posts... JAMES M. SURPRENANT, MBA Department of Surgery BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL Tel: 617-525-7409 ¨ Fax: 617-525-7723 -----Original Message----- From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Cappellucci, James E. Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 4:24 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats I feel like F. Gumby. My Brain Hurts! James Cappellucci Sr. Grant Administrator, Grants & Contracts Partners Healthcare/Massachusetts General Hospital 101 Huntington Avenue, 3rd Floor, Suite 300 Boston, MA 02199 Phone 617-954-9858 Fax: 617-954-9850 Main: 617-954-9309 xxxxxx@partners.org ________________________________ From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Schoen, Alexander Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 4:07 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats Dead Parrot Sketch - "this parrot wouldn't voom if you put 30,000 volts through it ... this is an ex-parrot!" ----------------------------------------- Alexander Schoen Director, Office of Sponsored Programs Winthrop-University Hospital 222 Station Plaza North, Suite 510 Mineola, NY 11501 Phone: (516) 663-4931 Fax: (516) 663-9718 xxxxxx@winthrop.org P Please consider the environment before printing this email ________________________________ From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Judith Andersson Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 3:56 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats I love that part: "I didn't come here for abuse - I came for an argument!". "Sorry. Arguments are next door". Judith Duke University William Decaneas wrote: Good Monty Python reference. I wonder how many others have seen that skit. Hysterical. ________________________________ From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Schoen, Alexander Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 3:05 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats please refer this thread to the Ministry of Silly Walks. Alex ________________________________ From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Mike McCallister Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:56 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats Yes and I think sponsors are more sophisticated on this type of thing than we are. Sure you can get an auditor who has no idea of ho92w big one finding is in relation to another-they are all findings, which is fundamentally silly at times. What we have to do is NOT get silly in the Palin sense-the Silly Party. Next let's talk about lab sox and flip flops. Do your best, don't obsess. Spanky From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Richard E. Brandt Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:25 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats This is where reality and the rules run head-on into each other. And precisely because few places can accomplish tracking on something so minor. How far out do you take this? Is a box of gloves charged as an indirect cost because someone could take a glove and work on another project; a 100 count box of pipette tips would need to be counted as used to ensure that they were only used on one project; would you do a journal entry to transfer the cost of 4 tips to another project account. It easy to determine Reasonable, Allowable, Allocable and Exclusive on big items, but labs run on small items. The other side of this is the need to keep the respect of our researchers, so that we may successfully enforce the truck load of terms and conditions necessary to meet the myriad of grantor requirements. This brings us back to the first of the three conditions... reasonable. Richard ________________________________ From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Cappellucci, James E. Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:39 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats They need to reasonable, allowable and allocable. However, for them to be charges to a grant, they would have to be either exclusively used for that grant, which must be able to be proved, or allocated to the grant by way of a cost driver (i.e. 20% of PIs time spent on grant A means 20% of lab coat cost can be charged to grant A). Most places do not keep this kind of tracking on something so minor, so the item would not be able to be charged to a grant as a direct cost. The cost probably outweighs the benefit, so charge it to the overhead pool or department fund. So Allowable, yes, but you need to go 3 for 3. Reasonable and allocable don't seem to fit. James Cappellucci Sr. Grant Administrator, Grants & Contracts Partners Healthcare/Massachusetts General Hospital 101 Huntington Avenue, 3rd Floor, Suite 300 Boston, MA 02199 Phone 617-954-9858 Fax: 617-954-9850 Main: 617-954-9309 xxxxxx@partners.org ________________________________ From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Richard E. Brandt Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:04 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats I'm going to go the other way on this. Lab coats are a lab safety supplies, just like gloves and safety glasses. They are a legitimate cost of doing business. A prime example is our animal facilities: you are required to have a lab coat available there for each researcher expected to enter and process animals, prior to leaving they are required to remove them and deposit into a laundry bin, the coats are labeled for the animal project involved and are charged back to the same project. This helps to avoid compromising expensive animal models, saving costs and lives Coats in a standard research lab would rarely need cleaning unless they had just protected someone from a project spill, and the cost of cleaning would be significantly less than replacement (which would be allowed) providing a benefit to the grantor. As always, it depends, and how is the charge "consistently" handled on other funding sources. Richard - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Richard E. Brandt C.R.A. Financial/Research Administrator Department of Physiology Division of Human Pathology Michigan State University 517 884-5234 ________________________________ From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Carolyn Elliott-Farino Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:35 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Lab coats Wouldn't that fall under indirects? Good grief - they pay you to do research and then you want them to also pay to clean the lab coats? Can you say that x or y lab coat was worn only while the human was working on z or w grant? I think it would be next to impossible to allocate the expense to one grant. Presumably research is also done on university time. From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Katz Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:01 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: [RESADM-L] Lab coats I'm sure this question has been asked before but does the NIH allow for the cleaning of lab coats to be charged to a grant?? I have a very irate PI who insists it should be an allowable cost. I don't see anything under A21 but I know this has been asked before. Thanks Matt Matthew D. 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