Re: Grants.gov Adobe forms questions Dimmitt, Robert J 24 Jan 2008 17:10 EST
Bob, Thanks for the link. I had not seen that. You are correct that you did not say "grants.gov help desk", however, shouldn't the responses from grants.gov help desk be correct and accurate and be the same as the response one would get if able to talk directly to grants.gov Washington staff? In all the grants.gov presentations I have been to with the Washington staff, we are constantly told to send questions to the grants.gov help desk. If getting accurate (correct) answers can only come from the Washington staff, then we need to have their contact information. Finally, you are also correct that everything published says ADOBE READER 8.1.1, however, it does not become sufficient guidance when you are contacting the appropriate resources, in an attempt to clarify, and they are giving information as is illustrated by my examples below. Please know that I specifically clarified that I see it says READER, but asked would ACROBAT PROFESSIONAL be ok and the response was YES with the explanation given below. Please do not take the comments as being directed at you. As every user on this list serve would probably agree that you are a wonderful liaison between the users of the system and grants.gov. I think in all honestly, my frustrations with this adobe system is that it appears we have taken a step back. I just hope that the concerns of users like me are being heard. Thanks again for the link and guidance. Rob xxxxxx@purdue.edu -----Original Message----- From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Bob Beattie Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 4:20 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Grants.gov Adobe forms questions In all of my comments I did not refer to the Grants.gov Help Desk; but to the Grants.gov Washington staff, and what they publish on their website and state in public meetings and webcasts. Everything presented refers to ADOBE READER 8.1.1. Is this not, now, sufficient guidance? Note that the requirement for using ADOBE READER 8.1.1 and not 7.0.1 was released just last Friday http://www.grants.gov/aboutgrants/program_status_archive.jsp Concerning Steve's excellent points. The Federal Demonstration Partnership encourages IT staff to attend its meetings. Each member has a Faculty, a Grants Office administrator and an IT "slot." There is is an eRA Standing Committee which arranges meetings for the IT staff, and others, who wish to attend. Only 90 some schools are members of FDP, and not all send an IT/eRA person. Moreover, while there are sessions at Regional and National SRA/NCURA meeting on eRA topics, many schools do not send anyone. These meetings are expensive. Regional meetings are, however, often nearby. The NCURA Western meeting is in Portland. Grants.gov, at least, has a free webcast every quarter. This listserv gives an opportunity for information exchange. The NCURA eRA Neighborhood is another venue for discussion (but I think it requires membership in NCURA). Is there a similar SRA function? I would hope that Grants Offices that are lucky enough to have their own IT staff, do support them and keep them in the "loop." I find that often the problems come when dealing with IT staff at a higher level, who have not the time to understand the difficulties of modern electronic Grants management. Bob xxxxxx@umich.edu On Jan 24, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Dimmitt, Robert J wrote: In the email below regarding believing IT staff or believing grants.gov staff, I have some concern. When the adobe forms first came out and then opened up to 8.1.1, I emailed, and called, the grants.gov help desk to ask the following questions: 1) In one instance, I asked if adobe acrobat professional was supported as well as Reader. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of an email response because they emailed me back asking for me to call them. However, they gave me a case number (which is available if anyone needs it) saying that, in fact, acrobat professional was able to be used and was not "advertised" because it was not a free software like reader is. At the end of my conversation, I specifically verified that if someone does have a version of acrobat professional 8.1.1 or 7.0.9, then they would be ok and not need to go through reader. The answer was YES. 2) When 8.1.1 came out, I had another conversation with the grants.gov help desk (unfortunately no email trail on this one or a case number, so you just have to take my word on it). The conversation focused on if a package using 8.1.1 could be submitted with a 7.0.9 version and vice versa. Again, the response was YES. Now, I want to clarify that we have only submitted a handful of adobe packages to date and have not had any problems. However, I am not sure where to go now or what to do. Our IT staff have put what we have asked for on our machines and we are in a position to submit proposals according to the instructions/guidance we were given. If, however, we are being told that that either using acrobat, or a reader version other than the one it was created in, will cause errors, this is a problem. If at all possible, can someone please provide some guidance? Rob ------------------------ Rob Dimmitt Assistant Director, Pre-Award Sponsored Program Services Purdue University 302 Wood Street West Lafayette, IN 47907-2108 Phone: (765) 496-9647 Fax: (765) 494-1360 -----Original Message----- From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@hrinet.org] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Steve Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:38 PM To: xxxxxx@hrinet.org Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] Grants.gov Adobe forms questions This is a prime reason why IT staff should be involved in the day-to-day operations of your institution's SRO. Providing IT support to an SRO office is a very specialized endeavor. There are many quirks, special language and abbreviations, and specific knowledge that an IT professional must have in order to provide the staff with accurate information and assistance. When confronted with a new situation, we need that background in order to know where to go to find the solution that you need to continue your work. Excuse me for a second while I get up on my soapbox: IT professionals should get more recognition, sessions and information at conferences and online education. We form the backbone of everything you do. The activity of an SRO office would come to a screaming halt if the computer hardware, infrastructure or application software were to fail. We can do a much better job supporting you if you acknowledge us and include us in your plans. Institutions should encourage their IT professionals to attend National and Regional meetings. National and Regional meetings should have tracks that empower and educate IT professionals to excel in their work with the SRO. We have many capable IT professionals working in SROs around the country who can be tapped to lead these endeavors, with the goal of grooming a future generation of SRO IT support professionals. Just as SPAs have to be grown and groomed, so must the support staff. End of Soap box. Steve Shapiro Technical Group Manager University of Oregon On 1/22/08, xxxxxx@umich.edu <xxxxxx@umich.edu> wrote: > This is what I am telling our campus. > > "Concerning what you need to process grants, you can believe your IT > Support staff or you can believe Grants.gov staff. The Grants.gov > staff say to use ADOBE READER 8.1.1 to download, open, fill in and > submit grant applications." > > In so far as federal grant applications are concerned, I suspect most > IT Support staff are, in most cases, under-informed. They are well > meaning people who think they are doing what is in the best interest of > those whom they support. I am sorry if I sound harsh here, I have > been, shall we say, politely, "discussing" this issue with a number of > well meaning people on our campus. I would like to think, in grants > management, our IT colleagues will carry out the necessary support > role, once the grants people tell them what is needed. > > This is turning out to be painful for everyone. I hope General > Dynamics had planned for a better outcome than they have gotten when > they sold Grants.gov on using Adobe, a program over which they have no > control, and which is much more complicated, for a University, than > they could have anticipated. > > Back to IT. No matter what those folks say, you need to use ADOBE > READER 8.1.1. You cannot use Professional and believe, as some IT > people have told me, it will work "just like Reader." If you believe > that, then move your submission deadline back a few days to compensate > for all the invalid applications. I know that most IT managers must > centrally control what goes on peoples' computers. This can be at a > department or even an institutional level. I suspect this did not go > into the General Dynamics calculation for success. They probably > assumed everyone just installed whatever was wanted, whenever it was > convenient. So cause for more pain. > > The proverbial "bottom line" is that you should make ADOBE READER 8.1.1 > your browser default program to open all .pdf files from the internet. > You can still use other Adobe programs to make .pdf attachment files. > The other Adobe programs will still work in conjunction with Reader. > Be careful, however, when you open up Professional as it will ask you > to make it your browser default. Just say no. > > The newest statement from Grants.gov staff, who are trying to be as > helpful as possible as they are caught in the middle of all this, is > that you should not use both Reader 7.0.9 and 8.1.1 on the same file or > you will get even more problems. Thus I am, as well, asking our campus > to use only ADOBE READER 8.1.1. > > I hope this long explanation sheds some light on this as Suzan requested. > > Bob > ____________________________ > Robert Beattie UMich Grants.gov Liaison Managing Project > Representative for eRA Division of Research Development and > Administration University of Michigan 734 936-1283 xxxxxx@umich.edu > > > > Quoting Suzan G Lund <xxxxxx@UNLNOTES.UNL.EDU>: > >> Does anyone out there know how having the Adobe Acrobat Professional >> (version 8.1.1) affects the use of the new forms packages? We've only had >> limited exposure to the forms packages thus far and are not clear if using >> Acrobat Professional, which our office has, creates/solves any problems. >> We're only hearing about the use of Reader 8.1.1. Even our IT guys aren't >> sure. Any light you can shed would be helpful. Thanks. >> >> Suzan G. Lund, CRA >> Associate Director >> Sponsored Programs >> University of Nebraska-Lincoln >> 312 N. 14th St., Alexander West >> Lincoln, NE 68588-0430 >> Ph: 402-472-1930 Fax: 402-472-9323 >> email: xxxxxx@unl.edu >> >> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change >> the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. 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