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Re: basic question Charlie Hathaway 01 Mar 2006 09:52 EST

While we are on the subject of error messages, I would like to hear comparison data from people who have submitted BOTH via PureEdge and an "error checking" S2S mode (from your own server/database or through an off-site service provider).  The big knocks against PureEdge are the lack of web-based access and the lack of pre-submission validation against agency rules.  I see the web-based access as being more important for NIH submissions that involve larger projects (i.e R01s and beyond).  As for the errors: let's see the evidence that the S2S products do a significantly better job than a trained and diligent PureEdge application preparer.

It would be nice if the agencies could provide us with rankings for error-free submission among different submission modes/products.  Unfortunately, I have been told that when the NIH receives an application, they cannot tell how it was initially sent to Gg.  Is this true?

Charlie

At 09:28 PM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
>Charles, You will be getting 4 messages with every Grants.gov
>submission.  The first message has a useful referent -- applicant
>filing name.  We use a standard format for this so will know what it
>refers to.  The three subsequent messages have only the Grants.gov
>referent number.  What a record keeping nightmare.  We do about 100
>applications for a cycle so will get 400 messages, plus every re- submission will have 4 more.  Maybe a third with errors (a high
>estimate because by then we will have overcome most of the error
>problems) so that is another 120 messages.  This does not include the
>messages for NIH, so 100 of those to start with and then 30 more
>having errors, so a second message, gives us 650 total emails over
>the course of a week!
>
>One aspect to consider with Charlie's point below about a department
>administrator submitting the original Grant is that there is pressure
>on NIH to eliminate the SO validation in the Commons.  If the
>original submission by the AOR is done by someone authorized by the
>University to do so, or if the person is submitting a proposal
>approved by an authorized person, then why is there a need for
>another authorization.  At one time some people considered letting
>the PI do the Submission as long as the SO had to then do an
>authorization in the Commons.  This does, however, get very tedious
>as the EBIZPOC must give submission authorization to all the PI's.
>EBIZPOC = Electronic Business Point of Contact = the person who makes
>decisions as to whom to register in Grants.gov.  Usually this is the
>person named in the Central Contract Registry, who ends up getting
>all the junk mail and calls for free credit cards :)
>
>So if NIH does away with the SO/AOR second validation, then the
>Grants.gov becomes the official submission, with no NIH follow up.
>In this case it seems to me that the submission must be closer to the
>Grants office and not done by a PI or even a department/unit
>administrator.  There is some potential for this, if the application
>has been officially approved by an authorized person at the Grants
>office, or higher up.  Still the EBIZPOC must be making all these
>approvals and keeping track of who is approved.  Lots of university
>business process decisions to make.
>
>Bob
>xxxxxx@umich.edu
>
>
>On Feb 28, 2006, at 5:24 PM, Kaars, Charles wrote:
>
>>MC,
>>
>>        This is an interesting exchange.  I hadn't thought about who
>>will get the error messages.  When we are handling 40 submissions on
>>Feb. 1 2007 we will not want to get the error messages in our mail
>>boxes.
>>
>>C.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Research Administration List [mailto:xxxxxx@HRINET.ORG] On
>>Behalf Of Charlie Hathaway
>>Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:01 PM
>>To: xxxxxx@HRINET.ORG
>>Subject: Re: [RESADM-L] basic question
>>
>>Bob-
>>
>>Thanks!  Your FedEx analogy is apt.  We are trying to consider the
>>best
>>way to give depts and investigators flexibility, get error
>>notifications
>>back to the people who will need to make the corrections, and maintain
>>institutional control.  Obviously, this all looks ahead to those
>>deadlines when we would prefer to not monitor and micro-manage every
>>single proposal getting bounced around in the xml ether.  Who wants a
>>POed SO?
>>
>>You mention that NIH says it sends messages to the person in
>>section 19.
>>This is the AOR (not SO).  IF this is true, it means that a department
>>administrator authorized as an AOR can (following internal approvals)
>>submit a proposal, learn of errors, handle the resubmission, etc.
>>Then
>>the SO can do the final verification.
>>
>>Charlie
>>
>>
>>At 03:08 PM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
>>>Who's Who and Can Do What is a crucial question people using
>>>Grants.gov
>>
>>>need to consider.
>>>
>>>SO = signing official, a NIH Commons term for the person who signs
>>>the
>>>PHS 398 in the lower right side and who, in the Commons, has highest
>>>authority and can do anything except see PI reviews.
>>>
>>>AOR = authorized organizational representative, a Grants.gov term
>>>for a
>>
>>>person authorized by the EbizPOC to submit proposals.
>>>
>>>One person can have both roles and the roles can have the same or
>>>different people.  That is to say, an institution can assign both
>>>jobs
>>>to a person and to many people.  University business rules should
>>>dictate who can do the tasks allotted to each role.  For example a
>>>person can be given SO rights for the Commons but not be
>>>authorized by
>>>the university to approve proposals.  So the person can work on
>>>Commons
>>
>>>projects as an SO but not do approvals because that is not the
>>>person's
>>
>>>job at the institution.
>>>
>>>Likewise,  you can consider actually pushing the button to "submit"
>>>an application via Grants.gov to be akin to putting it in the
>>>FedEx box
>>
>>>if the application has been APPROVED by an institutionally authorized
>>>person.  Thus a person who does not have the institutional right to
>>>approve a proposal can still "submit" it, once it is approved.  I
>>>have
>>>spoken to folks at some universities who seem to think that the
>>>government agencies understand the roles and rights of people in
>>>universities and have assigned system roles and rights based on this
>>>knowledge.  Thus, a Vice Provost for Research who is authorized by
>>>the
>>>Governing Board to approve proposals seems to be the only one who
>>>can
>>>"submit" them through a system.  Consider differentiating between
>>>University business rules and submission system business rules.
>>>
>>>Grants.gov recognizes as the submitter, the person whose sign-on and
>>>password is used to make the submission.  There is an email
>>>address for
>>
>>>this person in the system and that person gets the 4 Grants.gov
>>>messages.
>>>
>>>NIH says it sends messages to the "Person to be contacted" (section
>>>6) and to the SO,  the  person listed in section 19.  If this
>>>person is
>>
>>>not an SO then I do not know, because our "official" AOR is also
>>>an SO.
>>
>>>Sending to both people may explain why some people got two
>>>messages, as
>>
>>>both the contact person and the SO/AOR.  The contact person for us is
>>>the person who would have been in the lower left section of of the
>>>PHS
>>>398 and she did not get NIH messages.
>>>
>>>So Grants.gov notifies the submitter only.  We have a group email
>>>address for this "person" and so all people who have AOR status
>>>get the
>>
>>>message.  NIH notifies the person in section 19 and maybe the
>>>person in
>>
>>>section 6.  In any event, any one with the SO rights in the
>>>Commons can
>>
>>>verify, whether that person "submitted" the application or not.  It
>>>would really be nice if NIH sent their messages to all SO's.  In
>>>so far
>>
>>>as the PI is concerned, folks might consider using a group email
>>>if the
>>
>>>PI is difficult to contact.  All people in the research team, or the
>>>department management staff could be in this group.
>>>
>>>Charlie, am I getting to an answer to your question?
>>>
>>>Bob Beattie
>>>UM Grants.gov Liaison
>>>xxxxxx@umich.edu   936-1283
>>>Learn more about Grants.gov @ UMICH
>>>http://www.research.umich.edu/era/grants_gov/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:07 PM, Charlie Hathaway wrote:
>>>
>>>Just when I think I am understanding Grants.gov/NIH eRA, my brain
>>>stumbles.
>>>
>>>Question:  What is the relationship between a Grants.gov "AOR" and an
>>>NIH "SO"?
>>>
>>>My assumption was that AORs submit to Gg and deal with Gg issues,
>>>that
>>>SOs deal with NIH Commons issues, and that an AOR may or may not
>>>be an
>>>SO.
>>>
>>>Now I come across Gg tutorials mentioning SOs and some NIH tutorials
>>>talking about AORs.
>>>
>>>And if you have multiple SOs and AORs, who gets notified about errors
>>>and who needs to do the verification?
>>>
>>>Help?  Thanks.
>>>
>>>Charlie
>>>
>>>
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